Matt here again. I took an mp3 listening test here a while ago. The shoot out was between an mp3 of 320kb/s vs. and mp3 of 128kb/s. A number of people commented that a test between a pure wav. file against a 320kb/s mp3 would be more useful.
So I went into my vault and pulled out a 24bit wav file with plenty of harmonic content – all sorts of broadband sound just begging to be handled with kid gloves. Then I shot it through my iTunes mp3 encoder and yanked out a 320kb/s version. The mp3 is only 25% the size as the wav, but is there a sonic trade off?
Which file is the mp3, and which is the wav?
It’s hard to disguise the files using this format.
In order that you don’t cheat (by looking at the file names or file load times),
have a friend play these for you in random and see if you can hear a difference…
WARNING ~ WARNING ~ WARNING
*** DO NO READ BELOW UNTIL AFTER YOU TRY THE TEST ***
I’ve attached a frequency chart and a null test.
The frequency charts are identical, but as you can see the 2nd frequency chart (representing the mp3) has a steeper roll off after 16khz. The null test reveals the sonic difference between the two files. Not all of this represents loss of sound – it represents change in sound. The mp3 quantizes differently, which is not a loss of sound – just a micro-auditory restructuring of sound. The loss is broadband information which is harder to perceive than designated frequency information. However, if you notice the biggest difference exists where the snare drum is hitting – and it’s no coincidence that snare drums contain the highest content of broadband sound.
Frequency Chart for .WAV file
Frequency Chart for .MP3 file
Like the song in the sample?
It’s “Memorabilia” by Mechanical Minds
MechanicalMinds Memorabilia (Master 11 10) by Hueman360
If you want to disguise the files, why don’t you convert the MP3 back to WAV? The changes applied by the compression algorithm would remain.
Would you be able to do another one of these with Electronic music – tech house or Techno perhaps? The digital debate is far more prevalent among DJ’s who use either Vinyl, CD Decks or a fully digital setup, and this is always a topic of continued discussion.
would be interessting – yet, from as far as i can tell: in the club everything is so loud that you wouldn’t notice any differences. sounds above 16khz are the ones which make your ears bleed the next day
Why use a 24 bit .wav? If I’m going to get access to a wav, it’s going to most likely be from a CD, which would be a 16 bit .wav.
I don’t imagine there would be *that* much difference, but I think it’s still more of a useful comparison.
I agree with colly, I’m here for the same exact reason. Chromie, not sure if a label will more often use 16 or 24 bit for their digital releases, so for my reasons, I can’t say there.
I would prefer the converting be done with a LAME encoder, though. Have read that iTunes isn’t up to par.
Either way, though, thanks for posting these!
what artist/ song is this?
@Jonny & Chromie – my reasoning for using a 24bit wav file was to have the sound quality completely unchanged from it’s original recording. I used the iTunes ripper because it is to my guess the most commonly used mp3 encoder, but I did 320 to do as little data compression as possible. So source file vs. high end mp3 encoder. I have also heard that the iTunes encoder isn’t the best available. However, if you can hear the difference between two different mp3 encoders at work – you are truly a blessed ear.
@Eric – this is “Memorabilia” by a band I produce called The Mechanical Minds. It is soon to be released and used with permission.
I always listen to music in an mp3. But lately a growing number of music in a format flac. What do you think about this format and could you also compare this format with mp3 and wav? very interesting to see the result.
[...] Sound Test: Difference between Wav vs MP3 | NoiseAddicts music and audio blog __________________ http://wezbash-oldskooltuna.blogspot.com/ [...]
@TrueMusicFan FLAC is a lossless compression format so the file size should be smaller than WAV but the sound should be the same.
Great detailed information, I just bookmarked you on my google reader
Sent from my Android phone
When I worked at SLM Electronics (manufacturer of Crate guitar amplifiers), they had a scope and spectrum analyzer set up to show customers how closely their solid state circuit designs resemble the sound of tubes. But – as in almost all other technologies, theory does not always hold competely true in actual practice. Regardless of what the spectrum analysis looks like, my ears hear less dynamic range and some distortion in an MP3 as compared to a WAV, along with a slight change in the instrumental balance.
Not at all surprising. When listening to a digital reproduction of a complex analog signel, my ears hear a slight graininess when a vocal note or cymbal crash fades out, and a few things suddenly jump out that were previously buried in the mix. To some extent, these phenomena also occur in the transition from WAV to MP3.
To really capture the difference visually, you would need much more than the rudimentary spectrum analysis shown above, which appears to be taken from only a split second of the music. In fact, you already see a small difference at the extreme high end – and that’s only one sample.
[...] U tell the Difference between WAV vs MP3 ? Sound Test: Difference between Wav vs MP3 | NoiseAddicts music and audio blog Here is a [...]
Hi folks,
after beeing successful in the 128kB vs. 320 kB “test” I liked here the MP3 more than the wav sample. Funny
.
Bye the way: A few years ago, some guys made a double blind test to check out some 128 kB MP3 vs. the original track. Every MP3 track has been made with lame and was burned as a wave sample on cd, side by side with the original. Stereo Equipment was some Rotel, Burmester and Visaton stuff for over 10.000 EUR. The result was very clear: it was very, very hard to hear the differences.
Interesting test; What’s the name of the song that the excerpt’s from?
i’ve just recently purchased serato live sl3,i’ve been spinning vinyl for 20 years-not really been into digital:i.e cdj’s.so i brought serato as you can still use your decks-i went straight to youtube and converted a couple of music vidoes,played them back through serato-what a disipointment!!!so i downloaded a mp3 or file through it and it still sounded muffled,so i went down the wav file road(fingers crossed)and it still sounds pants.i’m a trance/hardtrance dj-the punch of the bass has been lost :O( ,i’ve never used cdj’s,but seeing as their in mp3 or wav format they must be the same(yes iam semising)moral of the story is vinyl is better(or i’ve used it for so long,i’m used to it-but to tell you the truth digital sucks bigtime!!)
Barry is very much correct here. A spectrograph is an approximation of frequency response based on an algorithm, which is in turn based on discrete frequency values. True frequency response is an analog (as in continuous) set of values – all of which are changing through time. To my understanding, mp3 encoding does not alter the dynamic range of the sound – however, because it alters the frequency content, it can have a perceived effect on the dynamic range. But this is why the sound samples are posted.
@spendormania – the beauty of mp3s is that the loss is broadband and psycho-acoustically intelligent. When a signal hits an eq – the energy change is in one specific area. The narrower the area, the more obvious the change. With mp3s, it’s a little tougher to tell what the loss is, because everything is changing. However, it has been my honest experience that the source file going down to a 128kbps mp3 is a pretty distinct difference.
320kpbs is pretty subtle. However, there are still some non-consumer issues that make the quality loss relatively distinct. I often find myself mixing music where the source files involved are mp3s – and the original wavs are inaccessible. Don’t ask why. In this case, the top end becomes very difficult to manipulate – as it is thinned out so much. It becomes very difficult to provide a sense of “air” to an mp3, as that super high content is distinctly distorted. Mind you, this is the region over 16khz – where the average person isn’t hearing much (if anything) anyway.
Hi,
Very interesting example… When I checked the audio with compression advisor it gave me:
Sample rate 44100 and Bitrate 320kbps
Then I ran a script that automatically compresses, decompresses and analyzes (de)compressed file quality using AQuA Wideband with a step of 16kbps it suggested me bitrate of 112kbps and AQuA says that if I encode with Lame at 112kbps then I get 94.38% of quality what corresponds to 4.95 MOS, which is perfect. I wish I could attach the mp3 I got for your consideration!
Regards,
Valeri
Sorry people but the latest studies on hearing loss amoung young is due to MP3′s and the earphones being inserted into hearing canal with increased sound pressure.
Wow! Critical bunch appear to be reading the article. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to put this together. Very interesting read/test.
Fine Discussion. As For Me I Always Convert My CD’s To WAV Format For My Computer And Then To OGG Vorbis For My Little Sansa Clip Which Is Great For When I Take My Walks. But As For My Ultimate Listening Pleasure There Is Absolutely Nothing That Beats Listening To My Vinyl Record Collection. WAV, MP3, WMA, OGG, Flac, Loseless Simple Do Not Compare.
What’s up with All Those Initial Caps?
Wav files vs mp3 files are significantly noticable when you are creating electronica music with sound enhancers. For example if you make a track with fruity loops studio with the reverb plug in + the soundgoodizer, you can hear those effects diminish in the mp3 compared to the wav.
That could quite possibly be because your using fruity loops?! Not the most powerful music production software.
Just an idea
Actually Fl studio is as powerful as any other DAW out there. Do a little research before making ignorant comments.
fl studio is what a lot of people start out on. its got better over the years, but i wouldn’t rank it up with cubase and logic.
I pulled out my collection of cd’s and started listen to the difference between mp’3s and the CD’s (wav files) and have realize just how much sound is lost in the compression of mp’3s… even though the size of a wav file is much bigger where not hurting for space in this day and age….grab a CD of a song U have as a mp’3 on you’re compuer and listen to the difference especally in the vocals…. been using CDEX to convert….
I’m happy to listen to mp3 files at 320kbps, anything lower just feels less… snappy.
I’ve never thought there would be much difference between codecs but I guess what you guys are really talking about is bitrate anyway. What are .wav files usually anyway? if it’s lossless as I understand it, it’s probably 900+ kbps right? with all that extra data, it’s insane to think there wouldn’t be a measurable difference, it’s whether or not it’s a noticeable difference.
with me, I couldn’t tell the difference when I shuffled the two songs. But after reading about the snare, I was able to pick the wav out.
Nice test Matt.
I only had to listen to the first few seconds of file 2, the audio quality is clearly degraded.
40mb to 4mb (Wav to MP3) – 36mb difference in mathematical reality, but if I was asked to estimate the loss audibly I would say it ‘sounds’ more like 8-10mb, to be fair to MP3.
But I am listening through DT 770s plugged into my laptop. I would expect if I transferred the files to a HQ sound system, I would most likely audibly estimate the loss to be ‘much’ higher, if not the full 36mb.
Can the MP3/iPod generation hear the difference? I’m not sure whether hearing the difference matters to them, but ‘knowing’ there is a difference should.
A definitive and educational example of the lossy quality of MP3, thanks Matt.
Excellent! Never thought of doing a null test!
Yes, MP3 is removing audio data where a human won’t be able to hear it, mainly right after a loud pop the ears need a few milliseconds for the muscles to loosen on the eardrum. In this period the human ear is not capable of hearing the faintest sounds (like you won’t be able to hear a needle drop on a carpet right after an explosion, but you might when being in a silent room for a few minutes)!
Hi, I purchased a nice Arcam solo with Arcam iPod dock, I’d say I’m fussy when it comes to sound quality. I used iTunes to convert a recent Fabric CD. So I inserted the CD and then immediately played the same through the iPod.
Could I tell the difference at high and low volumes?? Could I [removed]!!!
If there’s a difference it’s a negligible one so therefore doesn’t matter. Any difference is in your head
I am using a speaker set-up with a DAC set up to 24/192K, playing some small JVC speakers fed from a small digital power amplifier.
Not too expensive or exclusive really!
And I could clearly hear the missing “airiness” and details in the compressed file!
I use .wav usually when ripping to digital, only problem is the missing meta data that makes manual naming of the folders necessary.
[...] much if a track was recorded live in a room… comment by Lumi [...]
Secrets of iTunes and iPod -Interesting article of a professional sound-engineer about the iTunes MP3 encoder: http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/itunes.htm
How did you make that “null test”? Are you simply subtractic one track from another? That’s a brilliant idea.
Though temporal distortions – ie. a sample being played sooner or later than the same sample in the original track – would show up quite obviously while maybe not making a difference…
The acoustic guitar sound better in the wave file, that’s about it…
What happens when you phase the two sound files against each other? That would give a auditory reference of the actual audio change.
Mp3 files flat out loose info,,,I’ve shown people a/b comparisons on a pro system and playing pink Floyd there were complete drum tracks gone.People don’t care much any more to the crap they stash on phones etc. I don’t care what the above charts say, mp3 can’t compare to a cd ,,vinyl is been a new toy to some now and even that format trashes mp3….pops skips and all.
Had to ad this, get a cd of pinksfloyd pulse album . There’s a song called learning to fly, roughly 12/14 seconds in compare that with mp3, if you can hear at all you’ll notice complete drum parts gone/messed up,,,, ive shown ten people on my pa system which is top shelf crown and jbl. By the way it was a analog recording to start with…..
I too have been looking for tools or techniques to make null files ever since I heard one on Microsoft’s web site when they were pushing wma format. They had null files derived from differencing between MP3 and wma at 128 and 192Kbps and there were significant variations between wma and mp3, wma being superior in covering things like the shown drum snares and high pitch string instrument fidelity.
WAV audio is always believed to have more clarity and depth than mp3 audio. This is why uncompressed audio is presented in the form of Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio on Blu-ray video versus the compressed Dolby Digital on DVD video. The difference can be noticed especially on 5.1 and 7.1 audio receivers. Movie producers want to pump out the best audio quality possible on HD video to provide the supreme quality of entertainment that was produced in recording studios.
anyone claiming to hear anything more than subtle, subtle (and i mean subtle) differences, in one instrument at time, is a wannabe elitist [removed] trying to justify his obsession with unnoticeably high fidelity expensive equipment he bought against the recommendation of everyone he knew in real life, who also can’t hear the difference.
the difference between them, is very real and very noticeable when editing/manipulating them, and only then. that is the whole purpose of high bitrates and uncompressed fat files. they have more underneath you can mess with in a DAW if you are so inclined, on the surface though, they are sonically identical for all intents and purposes.
wav is to mp3 what cr2 is to jpg
(a filetype designed for the sole use of heavy post production manipulation)
i like this…
Matt.
I’ve been blessed/blighted with quite sharp hearing and I listen to a lot of acoustic/treble-orientated music. I’ve always found something ‘lacking’ in the higher frequencies under mp3 format, which has made me reluctant to switch to mass-storage since the 90′s. Until now that is.I’m being overrun by CD’s and find them really tricky in the car… I now yearn for USB and MP3 convenience!
Today, I found and read and your article with great interest. I did your mp3/WAV ‘test’ over and over and the WAV format won for me each time, especially after focusing on the upper end of the hz range.(The giveaway for me is usually in the guitar-string/fingernail ‘clicking’
I then referred to your Null chart which was very revealing!
So. where’s this going?
Well, I’ve just this week finished saving my burgeoning collection of CDs onto my PC hardrive as WAV files, at the maximum file size. And also saved these directly onto my Ipod.
I will soon convert my car stereo to accept IPod/USB formats. In truth, USB is preferred as the sticks can stay in the car.
HOWEVER…. I note that most after-market Ipod interfaces will only support MP3/WMA files…!
Does this mean I have to re-record everything in MP3 format .. ?
OMG if yes.
Any light on the pool of my mp3/wav ignorance would be greatly appreciated!
Many thanks.
Mac
PS Great choice of track btw!
mac (re: playback of WAV and FLAC files) and others…
newbie to the forum
The Sansa Fuze mp3 player plays FLAC and OggVorbis files. (But not WAV files) In my very basic understanding, if you are not a sound/video editor, the FLAC files, as “native” FLAC, will be great for archiving and playing purposes. The Sansa Fuze (original, not the new Fuze+), is an inexpensive player with a very good sound chip on board, and plays many formats. Also includes FM radio, voice recorder, expandable microSD slot and other features. 8 Gb for under $70! The Sansa Clip offers same sound decoding chip but smaller and less-friendly GUI for a few bucks less than the Fuze.
I have ended up with a fairly large CD collection which I use on the home stereo. And ripped all my favorite stuff to mp3 at 256 or 320 kbps. Most of this sounds very good on my player. I’m sure that the original pristine vinyl, with a $300 cartridge and $1000 speakers would sound significantly better. I don’t have that kind of home equipment and even if I could, I cannot take it in the car or walking around. So I can accept some loss of quality as a concession to budget and practicality. What I lose in sound quality I really make up for in portability and flexibility. for me that’s a good tradeoff. Imagine in 1978 if someone had told you that the entire wall-shelf of vinyl recordings in your room could be converted to “computer files” and easily fit onto a player the size of a book of matches! For under $100!
For those recordings that I dearly love, I do rip or otherwise obtain the files in FLAC format, and listen on my player. Brad Mehldau Trio, for instance, “Art of the Trio-Volume 3-Songs” is one where the recording is so good and the sense of space and how the piano drums are mic’ed presents such a beautiful “soundstage” that I really feel it’s worth carrying FLAC files 10X the size of good mp3s. (After all, you can now get 32 gigs (!!) of storage on a tiny microSD for under $20!!!)
We’re all on different paths- and isn’t it great to have all these options so economically?!
Exactly!!!! The little Chumm Chumm, that happens when the upstroke happens is clearly low on the MP3. That’s why I like lossless all the more. Infact I try to find as much of FLAC as I can these days.
this test is stupid. firstly, we can see the files. as someone else said, they could have both been converted back to wav, then they’re indistinguishable.
secondly, a ‘test’ should consist of more than one single track. maybe a hundred or so? we then rule out probability, as its very unlikely for someone to get 100 right by chance.
Very cool. Yes I did pick the difference correctly but it is slight indeed. Thanks for the education, much appreciated.
I could make out the difference, slight but there. The WAV is crisper while the MP3 sounds a little dampened. For regular people mp3 is fine but i like that extra bit of crispiness especially more so cuz I make music myself.
I can hear the difference in high freqs betweewn mp3s @ <250kbps and PCM wav on my monitors, mp3s @ 250 above, nah
128 kbps mp3 file sounded perfectly with software processing like DFX or Stereo tool in my Notebook.
Just like WAV file with no any diferrences.
I find it amusing that some people are comparing their mp3s and cds on a laptop. I am a musician and a serious devotee of music and accurate sound. For me, the journey is hearing exactly what the recording sounded like in the studio. I own a dream stereo–Bryston equipment. I also own a DVD Audio and SACD player. Why? Because the more information that is presented to the lsitener the more it will sound like the real thing when it was recorded. When I listen to CD media (including DVD Audio and SACD) I get a 3d sense of the music that hits me in my midsection. When I listen to mp3 I hear a 2 dimensional corpse. The music i9ndustry should be moving beyond 24 bit/192 khz (recoprding software is now at 32 bit). Instead we have this corporate fostered lowering of the sonic bar through the argument of more is better. You can only listen to one song at one time. The question is: do you really listen to music or is it wallpaper?
I am seeing the placebo and bandwagon effect in full action here. So we had the portable CD player, then we transferred to portable mp3 players; for 14 years no one complained, and now suddenly mp3 is so terrible and lossy that its a pain to listen to anything encoded in this format)).
I am predicting a future full of pseudo-audiophiles using flacs on their portable devices just because its the new thing, its LOSSLESS! The same people who buy 400$ mobile phones and use 1% of its functionality.
(Non of this off course relates to producers and musicians…..well ok Ill also add to this bunch the 1% of individuals with superior paranormal hearing ability.)
i’m surprised no one once mentioned about the dynamics of the wave form above. that track itself is compressed and lacks dynamics. this test would of been better if a song with more natural dynamics and better mastering work was presented. so far i think this ABX type test is a flop and should be redone.
What song is this?
Erhard, completely agree. This test got me twice, I actually thought the better one was the mp3.
Lossless is good for archival, keep your favorite CDs in WAV/FLAC/ALAC just in case, for the next n years.